Michael Reagan, son of Ronaldus Magnus, is being pummeled by liberals for his attack, via an editorial, on gay marriage.
I, on the other hand, am happy that the truth is finally out there. No more hiding behind legal arguments or arguments about procreation. Reagan said plainly what most of those opposed to same-sex marriage are trying to hide:
This fight over Proposition 8 isn’t just about saying it should be legal in the eyes of government for two people of the same sex to get married in California.
It’s ultimately about changing the culture of the entire country; it inevitably will lead to teaching our public school kids that gay marriage is a perfectly fine alternative and no different than traditional marriage.
There is also a very slippery slope leading to other alternative relationships and the unconstitutionality of any law based on morality. Think about polygamy, bestiality, and perhaps even murder.
Yep, he said all that. The son of President Reagan said that if we allow homosexuals to get married, it will alter the culture such that folks will soon be able to marry as many goats as they want and then legally kill anyone who doesn’t like people marrying goats.
The intensity of the fight against same-sex marriage is a direct result of the cultural angst that religious zealots are experiencing, much like the angst that many whites are feeling about the browning of America. The zealots believe it is a matter of immorality versus righteousness and the forces of righteousness must rise up or else.
Right Wing Watch reported on a weird conversation between a Christian talk show host, Rick Wiles, and Fred Luter, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention—the largest Baptist denomination in the world and the largest Protestant body in the United States, according to Wikipedia.
The conversation began this way:
WILES: I have to admit I’m at a loss to understand the complacency and apathy of tens of millions of American Christians who are standing by, twiddling their thumbs while their nation is transformed into a socialist, homosexual, anti-God, anti-biblical morality cesspool. I fear that the moral decay has accelerated and worsened to such a degree that it is now impossible to halt the decline without a major catastrophe crippling the nation. […]
The Bible is full of examples to what happens to a nation that goes into idolatry and witchcraft and sexual sin, it always ends in disaster, always. So why aren’t we telling the American people that if you allow the Supreme Court to rule that homosexuals can marry, you have just committed national suicide. Why isn’t anybody standing up?
Right Wing Watch reported that Luter, the Baptist pope, “told Wiles that he agreed with his analysis that the US may end up being ‘destroyed’ like Sodom and Gomorrah over same-sex marriage.”
And just who might be the destroyer in that Sodom scenario? How about that crazy little dictator in North Korea? Yep:
WILES: You know at precisely the same time the Supreme Court is hearing these arguments on same-sex marriage in Asia a crazy man in possession of nuclear weapons, Kim Jong-un, is openly saying: I have ordered our military to position our rockets on US targets in Hawaii, Japan, Guam and the mainland of the United States. He has gone into a full state of war this week. I don’t know, Pastor Luter, I don’t know if anybody is — I know they’re not — they’re just not putting this together. You got this happening over here and you got this happening over here: could the two be connected? Could our slide into immorality be what is unleashing this mad man over here in Asia to punish us?
LUTER: It could be a possibility, I’m not that strong in prophecy but I would not be surprised that there’s not a connection there simply because of the fact we’ve seen it happen in scripture before. I would not be surprised that at the time when we are debating same-sex marriage, at a time when we are debating whether or not we should have gays leading the Boy Scout movement, I don’t think it’s just a coincidence that we have a mad man in Asia who is saying some of the things that he’s saying.
I remind you that Luter represents at least 16 million Baptists in the United States. And I submit to you that fundamentalist religion is the only thing capable of poisoning a human mind to the point that it would construct and utter such absurdities. And I further submit to you that those whose minds are poisoned by Christian fundamentalism in America make up a significant chunk of the Republican Party.
As I have said many times before, this is the same kind of thinking at the root of Quran-inspired terrorism, the difference being that these days our jihadists expect God to do the dirty work for them using an instrument like that wacky, and dangerous, dictator in North Korea.
The Erstwhile Conservative: A Blog of Repentance 
thgeneralist
/ April 3, 2013The greater fear, Duane, is that for current gun-toting Southern Baptists, the step between using Kim Jong-un as the hit man and taking matters into their own God-ordained, vigilante hands might be a fairly short one. There are buckets of hate-filled spittle tripping from the fangs and gob holes of SBC leadership crazies like Paige Patterson of Southwestern Seminary, Mike Huckabee of Faux News, and Bob Jeffress of Dallas FBC. The twisted corruption runs deep and justification for all manner of extra-New Testament thinking is the norm, now that Ayn Rand has replaced Jesus as worship-worthy. Fundamentalist Baptists have become mindless followers of whatever absurdities their designated (and often bat-shit-crazy) pulpiteers foment. Manipulators can — at the very least — lead unstable and stupid individuals to perform isolated acts of mayhem. John Stuart Mill reminds us, “Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.” This letter may make me sound like a nutty alarmist. But I’d suggest high profile progressives watch their back: Billy Bob has a gun and he’d be willin’ to use it to save his babies from gay cooties.
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R. Duane Graham
/ April 3, 2013General,
You have a way with words, my friend.
We’ve discussed this issue several times on this blog, to wit, how long will our own home-grown fundamentalists remain relatively tame?
I think, if we look back at our history and see how things have evolved culturally, we can pretty much count on our own Talibanish population to keep their cool, at least in terms of mass efforts to rebel against the godless.
But you made a point that needs repeated:
This is exactly what happened in the case of the late Dr. George Tiller, who was killed in his church by an anti-choice fanatic. One of your “manipulators” in that case was none other than Bill O’Reilly, who, among other things, called the doctor, “Tiller the baby killer” and actually said that not only did Tiller have “blood on his hands,” but so did Governor Kathleen Sebelius and “any Kansas politician who supports Tiller’s business of destruction.”
Now, it must be said that O’Reilly didn’t kill Dr. Tiller, nor did he instruct the actual killer to do his deed. He was exercising his right to free speech, which is the closest thing we have to a sacred right in this secular nation. But it is amazing to me that a man with such a high profile as O’Reilly has, essentially paid no price for raising the temperature of the debate around Dr. Tiller, especially since there had been a record of violence against him.
And the fact that O’Reilly is still the number one rated host on cable TV says something both strange and disturbing about the Fox viewership he commands.
Duane
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Brad Lang
/ April 3, 2013For some reason, the “Like” button wasn’t working, so I’ll just say that I agree with everything you said, and enjoyed The Generalist’s comments, as well. As usual, I’m thankful that someone (other than me) is paying attention to what these people say, because the “hate-filled spittle” tends to drip from my lips, too, when I’m forced to listen to their nasty shit. I’m trying to be patient, and if I were a Christian, I’d be asking Jesus to show me the way, but since I’m not, I’ll just conjure up an image of the saintly Rachel instead.
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R. Duane Graham
/ April 3, 2013Ahh! This gives me another chance to post this from 2009:
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ansonburlingame
/ April 3, 2013Was, or is, Jimmy Carter a Southern Baptist? I know he taught Sunday School for years and may still do so. The exact church in which he “preached” however, I’m not sure, are you???? My only point is watch out when you demoninze a whole church, Southern Baptist, Catholic, etc.
Somewhere above someone wrote about “sexual sin”. In today’s world the only sin related to sex that I am aware of in general is the sin of LUST, in the seven deadly sins originated by St. Francis a few years ago (or was it some other Saint?).
Adultery is not a crime today, anywhere in America that I know of nor should it be a crime in my view. For damn sure premarital sex is common, and should be as well in my view. Homosexual sex is not a crime either, nor should it be, again in my view.
But if you listen to religious folks, particularly the radical religious ones, well they want to punish, using government power for just about any sex one can imagine other than……..?
So I would ask, which is the GREATER sin, having “unlicsenced” sex or trying to punish someone for having sex that you don’t like? Pretty clear answer to me. Sex should not require government permission and only unwilling sex (rape) should be punished.
As for God and His views on the matter. Well go ask him yourself and see what answers you get. They may well be more accurate than what someone wrote in a “scroll” 2000 or even 3000 years ago, in my view. And as far as I know the Bible has not been updated in the last 2000 years either. Why I wonder?????
Anson
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R. Duane Graham
/ April 3, 2013Jimmy Carter disassociated himself from the Southern Baptist Convention in 2000, as far as I can tell because the ultra conservative leadership elevated the Bible to a position in the Godhead.
As far as what you claim is my attempt to “demoninze [sic] a whole church,” whether it be Baptists or Catholics, my beef is with fundamentalist religion of all kinds, whether it be Christianity or Islam or that strange cult of people who worship Bill O’Reilly.
Duane
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thgeneralist
/ April 3, 2013Anson,
President Carter WAS a Southern Baptist — and a Sunday School teacher. He left the SBC in 2009 because of the convention’s dishonest and irresponsible interpretations of scripture and lack of fairness and inclusiveness. He is — I believe — now part of the CBF: the place to which sane southern Baptists have migrated. As for demonizing crazy Baptists or Catholics or any others: as a person of faith you make your case to your brothers and sisters. They hear you or they don’t. If they don’t and you don’t want to be painted with their broad, nasty brush — you leave — and shake the dust from your feet. Or — you’re a damned coward.
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ansonburlingame
/ April 3, 2013Duane,
You did NOT demonize all Souther Baptists but General took a shot at it, in my view. I simply offered a word of caution as there are some Souther Baptist worshipers, or other demominations as well, that are “good people”. I just don’t like “broad sweeps” of condemnation and it was a short point made for sure. And frankly I agree with your objection to the “radical right” by and large as well in terms of religion.
General,
You missed my point I think. I do NOT “broadcast” my “faith”, actually I call it my own form of spirituality. Yes, I have recently started, again, attending a church and in fact sing in the choir. But I in no way “preach” my own views on God, Christ, the Bible, or anything else of a religious nature. I simply have a hard time deciding for myself what God’s Will might be in given matters and have no business telling others what it might be in their particular lives. That is between them and God as far as I am concerned. And if you have no such belief, well that is fine with me as well. It is entirely up to you.
Here is where the line gets crossed often around here however. I wrote a LTTE praising the Islamic Society of Joplin efforts to hold public meetings to familarize citizens with the Muslim faith. You should have seen the “package” I received in the mail in response from a local “Christian”. The letter was unsigned and with no address as well!!!
I was told to retract my letter, etc. and disavow all things written or implied in my LTTE. I intend to frame it and put it in my office about what NOT to do in matters of religious disagreement!!! The package was about six pages long with all sorts of “links”, quotes and references, sort of like Duane and all his “links” used to make political points!!!!
Anson
PS: Directly as a result of that meeting I began to read the Al-Quran in its entirety. WOW! I am only about half way through it but boy could I write at tiring length about that “viscious book” one supposedly speaking for God, or Allah. But I won’t probably, but may use future references from it in political discussions.
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brucetheeconomist
/ April 6, 2013Did you mean vicious book?
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thgeneralist
/ April 3, 2013Actually, Anson, I thought your point was fair and well-made. I agree: there a lots of good folks being “held captive” by right wing, religious demagogues and by their family members who actually like being under the sway of ecclesiastical egotists. The emotional and spiritual price one pays for cowering to hate-filled blowhards is never, ever worth it. I’m merely saying if you’re driving a Toyota and it sucks — get a Ford, or a Volvo, but dump the Toyota. If you have emphysema and continue to smoke cigarettes, you’re a dumbass.
If you’re a Catholic person of faith, but you think the Pope is a corrupt old bastard, in the pocket of thieves, dishonest bankers, and warmongers — then stop taking orders from him and leave. Literally, for Christ’s sake: leave.
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brucetheeconomist
/ April 3, 2013Mike Reagan. I recall listening to him some years ago, and the topic was I think torture.
He had solider on the line who was at least uncomfortable with the use of it.
I don’t recall exactly what Reagan said in response, but I think was basically implying that the caller was shall we say: ‘light in the loafers’. I found it maddening, and I don’t think I’ve listened to him since. So, I suppose it wouldn’t surprise me if he was gay baiting.
I find it difficult to listen to someone who equates masculinity with comfort with the use of violence to get what you want.
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Jane Reaction
/ April 4, 2013This is still apt:
When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in excess body-fat and carrying a misspelled sign.
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ansonburlingame
/ April 4, 2013So General,
We agree in principle. Nice to hear that in here, comments on this blog. LEAVE ME ALONE is my call for religious zealots. SHUT UP is an inclination to say or write as well.
As for the ever pithy Janes Reaction above, talking about Fascism in this discussion, well the latter phrase comes to mind as well, but it is a “free country, after all.
Anson
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thgeneralist
/ April 4, 2013And yet, Anson — and yet, the connections, unmade, go unchallenged. It takes a diabolical intertwining of corrupt politicians (read: Eric Cantor, Mitch McConnell, Antonine Scalia, et al), manipulative and morally bankrupt “faith” leaders (read: most megachurch pastors, SBC leadership, The Pope and his minions, etc), and the remarkably lazy and stupid followers of those two groups of demagogues — and their cynical and callous rich handlers (the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adleson, Pete Peterson and their ilk) to override the will of the people — and to override the will of the people by replacing democracy with fascism. It is what it is. It seems to me, Anson, you keep searching for the light. Join us. Come all the way over to civilized, compassionate side of humanity — to the left. You can’t really move into the sunlight while keeping one foot in the sewer.
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Brad Lang
/ April 4, 2013Well put, generalist. If Duane and I can find our way out of the sewer and into the light, why can’t Anson — or any of them? Just tell yourself, over and over, “Other people are just like me, and none of them wants to take my stuff.”
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thgeneralist
/ April 4, 2013I spent the first couple of dozen years of my life with a foot in the sewer, Brad. And for some unknowable reason, when you’re in it — with your brain switched off — that sewer smells sweet.
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R. Duane Graham
/ April 5, 2013I remember a summer I spent walking behind a truck loaded with hot asphalt, filling pot holes on county roads. The smell was nauseating, but as the day went on, you sort of got used to it. Never was able to imagine it as sweet, though, even though I wished I could have switched off my brain and made it so.
But I know what you mean about ideas. If you buy into an ideological schemata, as I once did with conservatism, and if you buy into it so deeply that the ideology does all of your thinking for you, it is amazing how hard it is to see your way out of it.
Duane
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brucetheeconomist
/ April 6, 2013I don’t think you mean to imply only conservatism ideology crowds out thought. People (left and right) support policy often because they feel comfortable with the people advocating it. Climate change it seems to me is a very complicated issue, but most people just figure I trust Rush/President Obama and support what they think. They (and I) don’t begin to understand the reasons to think the climate is changing. We need a less ideological discussion of such issues, but I don’t know how to get there.
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Jim Wheeler
/ April 12, 2013Good discussion in this post and I agree with Duane, Brad and the General most thoroughly. As for your plea, Bruce, “We need a less ideological discussion of such issues, but I don’t know how to get there”, the only option would be to banish lazy thinking. That’ll happen when pigs fly. 😦
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